Talk:Super Saiyan
LSSJ strength increases I'd just like to say it is a fact thatBroly's strength increases at his Legendary Super Saiyan form as he shows no signs of slowing down in all is fights and is quoted to have said in the 8th movie "My chi is rising" when pulverising the Z fighters. This carried on to the Dragon Ball Z video games. Uglyguy2008 09:31, 11 April 2008 (UTC) Super Saiyan power. Does it actually tell us that SSJ is a 50 fold increase in the series, or is this just speculation? Also, what about the later forms? Can we assume they also are a 50 fold increase each time, or would they be less, like ten times, or something. It never really tells us exactly how much more powerful a SSJ2 is than a SSJ to my knowledge. Dragon Ninja 12:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Dragon Ninja :I think the number was derived from the power level increase reported in one of the Daizenshuu volumes. I'm pretty sure that's where a lot of Frieza and SS Goku's statistics come from on List of Power Levels and if that's the case, then the fifty-fold increase would seem accurate. I think you're right about there being no source for a comparison between an SS and SS2 though. -- 21:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC) Another time we get an exact level for a transformation is Oozaru. Oozaru are said to be ten times the base power level (So, 5 times less ki than a Super Saiyan). Since Super Saiyans undergo an increase of 50 times according to those power levels, can we infer that the Golden Oozaru from GT (being basically the SS version of Oozaru) is 50 times the power of a regular Oozaru (and 500 times and 10 times base level and Super Saiyan respectively)? I haven't seen many episodes of GT, but I heard that a Golden Oozaru was fighting with Goku as SS4 (the level that can be achieved from that form) quite evenly. If SS4 isn't much more powerful than Golden Oozaru and Golden Oozaru is ten times the power of a normal form SS1, can we also infer that the increase through the SS levels might be much lower than the increase from normal form to the first SS level, because if G Oozaru is ten times SS and a SS2 was 50 times that, then a SS2 would be 5 times the power of the Golden Oozaru, and it would have been owned very easily by Super Saiyan 4? If it increased by a factor of 2, each time, that would make more sense. SS is ten times less than G Oozaru, SS2 is twice level one and five times less than G Oozaru, SS3 is twice level 2 and 2.5 times less than G Oozaru. SS4 would then be 1.25 times less than G Oozaru. Actually, I was googling it and I keep getting results saying that G Oozaru is the strongest in terms of power, but SS4 just uses the power in a controlled form and is the perfect form. Maybe I overdid it but that ties in with the figures. Do you think there's credence, then, to say that each SS level is a double increase in ki of the last? Sorry for the long post. Dragon Ninja 16:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)Dragon Ninja :I don't think that much planning really went into the strengths of the transformations. In all honesty, aside from what is specifically stated in the official material, I think it's pretty pointless to try and calculate relative strengths. :For example, in the beginning of DBZ, Vegeta destroyed the planet Arlia in his base form rather effortlessly. At the time, his power level, as indicated by a scouter, would've been around 18,000, perhaps even less. (Since he was about that strong when he fought Goku in his base form on Earth a few months later.) Later in the series, it was indicated by Dabura that it takes about 300 killis (another unit of power measurement) to destroy a planet, and Babidi explained that (Super Saiyan) Goku had 3,000 killis. :So, we can figure that Vegeta, with a power level of 18,000 must have had a power level of at least around 300 killis, since he was able to destroy a planet. So, 1 killi would equal, at the very most, about 60 'scouter levels' (possibly less). But, if we apply that measurement to SS Goku, who had 3,000 killis, that would put his power level at 180,000, tops. This is clearly way off, as he would have been well into the millions by the Frieza Saga. Obviously, trying to extrapolate relative strengths, even when using what seems like sound mathematical logic, can be extremely inaccurate. -- 03:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC) : :Listen all these are the numbers by which powers are increased by various SSJ levels OVER THE BASE FORM by the END OF DBZ:-''' :1. SSJ1:- 3x :2. SSJ2:- 6x (twice of SSJ1) :3. SSJ3:- 24x (4x SSJ2) :The 50x power increase of SSJ was ONLY IN THE FRIEZA SAGA; as the series progressed the power increase was reduced as the form was mastered and the base form's power increased. : : 15:16, August 23, 2011 (UTC) : Source? 15:57, August 23, 2011 (UTC) formations and folds *'''Oozaru:10x *'Super Saiyan'(2,3,4):50x *'Golden Oozaru':20x/100x Any thing I should list on? :Like was said, trying to use even official numbers to extrapolate additional power levels is precarious. (Aside from that, I'm not sure there's any official source for increase factors in SS2, SS3, SS4 and Golden Great Ape forms.) -- 22:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC) - I believe there is now. The Super Exciting Guide (which uses data Toriyama created for the manga) says, or at least a translation of it does, that SSJ2 is twice as strong as SSJ (I presume it means FPSSJ though), and SSJ3 is 4 times that. Not quite the ridiculous 50 times upon 50 times upon 50 times fold transformation you might suspect.User:Dragon Ninja Rilldo, when fighting goku notes that his power increased 100x, but that is no canon technically but according to Daizenshuu, his power increased 1250x from 120,000 to 150,000,000 against frieza csciabar Where's Onio Onio is a Super Saiyan so why isn't he on the page?Staff Sergeant Jack Jackson 06:23, 24 December 2008 (UTC) :This is a Dragon Ball wiki, and while Neko Majin parodies it and uses some of the same plot devices and characters, I don't think it could really be considered canon to the Dragon Ball universe. I see no problem with discussing official spin-offs of DB separately, but mixing their plots in with the DB series seems like it would be pretty confusing. -- 09:18, 24 December 2008 (UTC) Supressed Super Sayian Hi, i would just like to say that should the supressed Super Sayian form that Broly attained in Broly: The Legendary Super Sayian in the first fight against Goku be added onto the list of Super Sayian forms, as it should technically count as it is a type of Super Sayian transformation just like the False Super Sayian transformation? Super Sayian421 17:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC) :That is a good observation. However, it is an incorrect one. The Daizenshuu makes note that the strange looking Super Saiyan form Broly took prior to transforming into the Legendary Super Saiyan was indeed his full Super Saiyan form. The difference in appearance is caused by the control device attached to his forehead. As stated in the movie, the device wasn't designed to supressed his power, though it did do just that as a result of its actual function. The device was designed just to plain and simply control Broly and his massive power. It isn't its own class of a Super Saiyan form like False Super Saiyan is. '-- bulletproof' 21:26, 21 February 2009 (UTC) Character Box Just a question, but would it be allright if we could use the same boxes for the Super Saiyan transformations like we do for the character and technique pages? --SS INFINITY 14:43, 4 April 2009 (UTC) :I don't see why not. Template:Infobox Technique seems suitable. -- 07:52, 5 April 2009 (UTC) :Allright, thanks man. --SS INFINITY 13:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC) Pan? I Think Pan Lacks The Super Saiyan Transformation Ability Because she Is Female,May Sound A little Sexist, But It might be true :It's possible, but anything we'd put would be speculation since this isn't explained in the series. -- 09:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC) ::Well, Akira kinda implied that her being female was partially the reason why she didn't have a SSJ transformation (He mentioned that he couldn't imagine what a female SSJ would look like.). Considering there are only 3 Female Saiyans in the Series (Bulla,Pan,and the Female from the Bardock Special) So Akira didnt really have the oppurtunity to Get into it --Silver Sinspawn 00:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC) :Technically, there were only three named Female Saiyans in the series (Bulla, Pan, and I think you're referring to Fasha), however, there were definitely more than one female saiyans overall in the series (I know there were a few unnamed female saiyans in the pub scene in that same special, and at least one member of King Vegeta's royal guard was female.) Fasha......Yeah Thats Her,But Still,Its not like you would see an Unnamed Super saiyan Besides of course,the original,whos name has been long since forgotten) Just a little Random,But is it Possible Fasha is Goku's Mother.So there we're only 3 NAMED sayains that are Female? --Silver Sinspawn 04:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC) I think Toriyama said something about not knowing what a female would look like, so thats why GT never gave her the training or situation to go super saiyan, but if she tried she probably couldArieus 16:23, October 1, 2009 (UTC) Well To Be honest in The Flat Out Series DBGT Was Not created by akira but by a good friend and in his timeline he said Publically that Dragon Ball GT never happened nad in turn making Pand and SS4 not even real, but at the end of that Seires he had quetions about how and why Pan could not reach Suepr saiyan and Akira Simply Stated that she was too Far Down the Line nad Just didnt get the Geen, it also refers Back At th VERY end of GT when Gokus and vegeta GREAT Grandchildren FIght they Became super saiyans and That CVreated GREAT Controversy and Also The Super saiyan's Ability was also Only Known in Men. Akira Beleive that the Woman Shoulds tay at Home and Not Do anything to Endanger their lives while the Husband Did all the work, Very Old Fashioned. Ok Mr. Poor-Gramar-and-Random-Capitalisation Not only does your comment have no grounding at all for Akira's "Sexism" but i will agree he did not write GT, and Pan did not have the training to become a Super Saiyan at the end of Z, there was no subliminal sexism implied by Akira, i don't know if the guy who created GT was trying to put some down, but Akira definately was not. Arieus 21:42, February 1, 2010 (UTC) Pan was in the manga but only as a child. So, she is real. Your write about everything else. Super Saiyan Historian 23:16, June 7, 2010 (UTC) no!no!no!no! That is not correct and is completly wrong akira wrote gt! Gt is real and canon and akira came up with the base plot for gt and oversaw its production!Almasa 17:04, May 4, 2010 (UTC) Inheritage I think The Reason Goten and Trunks Turned Super saiyan so soon is because they sorta inherited it,and had the ability from Birth,just Unlocked it Later,Which may Mean Bardock (Possibly Fasha) and King Vegeta Might have had the ability Later on in life --Silver Sinspawn 08:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC) OR that Vegeta and Goku have it Which they do. i think that ssj became attained so much sooner was due the need and prob superior training as time went on csciabar 1:08, 01 Sept 2009 9 (EST) I believe Goten and Trunks inherited the ability to turn Super Saiyan as Goku and Vegeta were Super Saiyans at the time of their birth. It does seem a little ridiculous though. Vegeta's was right that the "Legendary Status" became a child's play thing...lol Super Saiyan Historian 23:20, June 7, 2010 (UTC) you cant inherit being a super saiyan its acheived through lots of training and the need to become it 13:24, August 9, 2010 (UTC) Picture! Evan though we always use anime manga is always better and the picture is so much better! So lets just make 1 exeption! Vegerot 11:40, 29 April 2009 (UTC)! I kind of agree that the one with all of the diffrent Super Saiyans is a better picture Thunderbender18 22:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC) Well now we have 2 votes to have the picture with all of the Super Saiyans so we have overpowerd you!Vegerot 11:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC) Oh My God! I won my 1st war!!!!!!!!!!!Vegerot 21:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)!!!!!!! SSJ2AJB Not exactly. What do u mean?!Vegerot " I AM GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"! 13:02, 14 June 2009 (UTC)!!!!!! SSJ2AJB Okay, one, Vegerot, don't say that you're God. That's blasphemy, so just stop it already. Two, stop adding a million exclamation points on your comments. You sound like an immature brat when you do that. And three, if you want to discuss this matter, do it on my talk page. People don't want to hear any nonsense that's unrelated to the Super Saiyan page. Just talk about it on my talk page. The current edit war regarding the image. SSJ2AJB and Vegerot, please stop continuing to wage war over the image, there is no need for it. It would be best for the two of you to discuss your opinions on the matter without continuously undoing and changing the image. Once you guys come up with a final opinion on the matter, then take action. I'm only saying this because I don't like to see users wage war over such a silly thing. I'd love to see you opinions, so please share them with each other and everyone else. Thanks again guys. 22:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC) pointless "No Full Blooded Saiyan has made his first transformation on the Earth (Goku's first transformation occurred on Namek and Vegeta's occurred deep in space while training). "this is the last piece of trivia on this page.i have to ask:is it really that required to have this noted?i don't think so,but i'm new here and that is my stupid noob thought.comments? I have to agree that it isn't necessary to have it in this article, I don't think we have to remove it either. It's an interesting little statement, so I think it can stay or go either way.Sonictheweasel 04:37, 2 July 2009 (UTC) spirit bomb- android 13 i thought goku chose to absorb the spirit bomb and didn't lose control of it, doesn't krillin say that he was still pure of heart as a super saiyan? csciabar Yes he did say that, but remeber, this is a movie and cannot be considered main canon, therefore Krillin's statement should be disregarded Arieus 21:47, February 1, 2010 (UTC) a true super saiyan this is pure speculation, but it seams like all the stages up to ssj3 are really all plateus reached by the fighter trying to gain strength i think maybe, the true ssj form is 3 (if you discard 4 since it is not part of the manga) and all others are just an approach to it at 3, your hair is really, really long and you have lost your eye brows, and your eyes have changed color, each stage in the super saiyan before this simply approaches this stage of course they may be distinct plateus (levels), of course we must simply refer to the creator ono this one but i like ssj4 because it kind of goes back to the more primalness of the saiyans being apes, returning some hair to their bodies and also giving back their black hair, it also seems like a good place to stop, at the beginning so to speak, but in that case, there only seems to be 2 real stages csciabar Technically speaking, if you go by Manga only, SS3 is the true form. The name SS1, and SS2 was created by the characters. It's kinda like a butterfly, the butterfly part is the last and "true" form of it. So SS1 could be considered a powered down version of SS3 but that's just pure speculation. BrolytheLegend Wow almost all of these make no sense. Why should SS3 be the true Super Saiyan? It was dubbed as SS3 by Goku after all. Besides then SS4 would be SS2. SS3 was never said to be the full Super Saiyan form. Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 are REAL transformations. SS3 is just another heightned level of Super Saiyan. Also the chracteristics of SS3 are not proof or evidence its the true Super Saiyan. Also Akira Toriyama wanted DBZ to end after the Frieza Saga but continued bc of fan popularity. So SS3 would not have existed if it wasn' t for fans, therefore that def proves it's not a "ture super saiyan" just a higher transformation of it Man i love that people can read. The comment was stated as pure speculation, and besides we all know that dbz was meant to end at the frieza saga, and THEN at the cell saga. So yes origionally SSJ3 was not meant to exsist, but the truth of the matter is Akira created new forms as an evolution of his characters, and thats all that happened.Arieus 21:51, February 1, 2010 (UTC) What was that first sentence supposed to mean? Also if we all know these facts then why should there be speculation? And your last sentence sums it up pretty well The way I see it (anime only) that all of the golden Super Saiyan forms are not transformations but upgrades from one to the next and that Super Saiyan 4 is the true legendary Super Saiyan because it focuses on the tail and the moon. But this is all speculation. Super Saiyan Historian 23:28, June 7, 2010 (UTC) Super Saiyan Historian has it right in my opinion. Remember Vegeta saying that the true Super Saiyan could only be achieved by taking control of one's self when tranformed into the Ape. I think that what GT is trying to show is that SSj1, SSj2, SSj3 are only ways of increasing power, but a true Super Sayian is actually the Super Sayian 4 form. And this can further be known by just observing the transformations. SSj1 gives more power and it's easy to achieve, SSj2 gives even more power is not so easy but not hard, SSj3 is full power but is easily consumed. But SSj4 is massively more powerful and it can be sustained for a really long time as it is proved by Goku when fighting Baby. Well i was just thinking that the actual true super saiyan could be another Super Saiyan level. In my opinion it would be a powered up Super Saiyan 4 called Super Saiyan 5. The fur would turn golden along with the hair. Kinda like a Super Saiyan SSJ4 I had thought of that as well. The form would make sense if a Super Saiyan had golden fur. Again I'm just speculating, but it could have been the original idea but opted for the red fur, red tail. I have seen alot of fanart of a Super Saiyan 4 with recolored golden fur. While this makes more sense I kind of perfer red fur visually speaking. One interesting observation to point out is the coloration between Golden Oozaru and Super Saiyan 4 are reversed. Golden Oozaru has red eyes, gold fur and SSJ4 has yellow eyes and red fur (Goku at least). However, Vegeta's green eyes as a SSJ4 is odd then again Gogeta is weirder. Super Saiyan Historian 07:08, July 1, 2011 (UTC) What does SSJ mean? Whats the difference between SS and SSJ? I came to the wiki to find out, but SSJ redirects here. :They are both abbreviations for Super Saiyan. Depending on the language and publisher, Super Saiyan is sometimes spelled with a "j", such as in "Sūpā Saiya-jin". Rest assured that SS and SSJ mean the same exact thing. Hope this helps. 05:32, August 29, 2010 (UTC) Legend picture This scene depicts the first Super Saiyan and appear in the series to illustrate Vegeta's telling of the Legend of Super Saiyans. It should remain on the proper section. A legend is a legend, even if it is not the most commonly known Super Saiyan, it is the one that Toei Animation choose to illustrate what is a Super Saiyan. Jeangabin666 14:56, September 26, 2010 (UTC) :that may be the case but there is another whole page dedicated to that picture and that person so it does not belong on that page and the Super Saiyan page 14:59, September 26, 2010 (UTC) ::The case is this section is about the Legend of the Super Saiyan. The legend is depicted by this picture. There is also pages about Goku, Vegeta, Trunks... and picture of them appear on this page. Jeangabin666 15:05, September 26, 2010 (UTC)] ::Yes but that picture is also filler and therefore non-canon it does not need to be there 15:07, September 26, 2010 (UTC) ::Then move it to a gallery section, but don't remove it. It's a filler, but it's also the first depiction of a Super Saiyan and gave us clue about their Golden Color. Jeangabin666 15:11, September 26, 2010 (UTC) Super Saiyan diagram I think the arrow connecting "Legendary Super Saiyan" to "Super Saiyan 3" should be greyed out, no? Because tat only appear in games. 18:07, September 27, 2010 (UTC) :Right! Jeangabin666 18:09, September 27, 2010 (UTC) Why? We present the information that only appears in games other places in articles, so why remove it from the diagram? 18:48, September 27, 2010 (UTC) :Not rmving it but coloring the arrow grey instead of dark, because the transformation from LSS to SS3 appears only in video games. Jeangabin666 19:15, September 27, 2010 (UTC) Cell? Don't know if this was brought up before but Cell could be added to users. when goku fights him in hell, cell powers up and has a yellow aura. since he has goku's dna in him it could be possible he learned how to transform while in hell. 22:48, January 29, 2011 (UTC) Cell's ki in his per form was always yellow like that. It's done to make his aura look like the main characters' auras to show the similarity in their DNA 07:32, March 11, 2011 (UTC)The Perfect Warrior, March 9, 2011 If the standard Super Saiyan transformation can multiply a power level x50, how much do the Super Saiyan 2, 3 and 4 transformation multiply a power level by? --Four Star 22:45, July 7, 2011 (UTC) There is no evidence in the anime or manga stating how many times stronger your power increases when you tranform into SSj2, SSj3, or SSj4. But some people claim super saiyan 2 increases 100 times stronger than super saiyan while others say 2 times stronger. It is totally fan speculation. 23:54, August 26, 2011 (UTC) Muscles don't change while going SSJ "Natural eye color temporarily changes to a greenish-blue, muscle tone becomes more defined, and the skin tone (and clothing) becomes lighter mainly due to the energy and light output of the golden aura." It has been shown in the Movie Bojack Unbound that muscles don't change while going SSJ and back. It as shown on Trunks when he fell down unconcious while fighting one of Bojack's men and transformed back, his muscles didn't change at all just his aura dissapeared and his hair turned normal(his eyes were closed)...... Please look into the matter.... Yours Sincerely 18:39, August 31, 2011 (UTC) :Then that's an exception. It's possibly that the muscle increase is quick, but going back to normal involuntarily is slower. 20:18, August 31, 2011 (UTC) :Actually the muscles do increase. If u actually watched the cell saga Vegeta first abtained the accended super sayin satus first and his muscles increased. Following that Goku and Trunks both powerd up to ultra super sayin and they were very buff..TheProdigy345 00:32, December 4, 2011 (UTC)TheProdigy345 Dec 03 2011TheProdigy345 00:32, December 4, 2011 (UTC) Broly super saiyan. I think that Broly's weird blue super saiyan color should be added but with a note stating that it was caused by his control items. :Please sign your posts. This was not a Super Saiyan form, just an effect of Broly's Ring. 02:22, September 12, 2011 (UTC) Are you sure? In video games, his blue-haired form is known as "Super Saiyan Broly." 02:24, September 12, 2011 (UTC) :Am I sure of what, you just said the same thing I did. 02:36, September 12, 2011 (UTC) You said it was not a Super Saiyan form. 02:39, September 12, 2011 (UTC) :I know it's not a seperate form but he was a super saiyan and his hair was blue, so i just thought that it should be added considering it was a color scheme while in the state. 03:04, September 12, 2011 (UTC) Right, the blue hair is not a separate form, it's just Super Saiyan. The blue isn't a separate color scheme either, it's just the ring's effect. 03:07, September 12, 2011 (UTC) Broly's blue hair in his Super saiyan form is because of the effects of his ring. The Super Saiyan form he takes is more of a "restrained" Super Saiyan, not much like the typical "Super Saiyan" with gold hair. Thats why when it breaks, it takes more of a goldish green. 12:56, September 12, 2011 (UTC) Goku... Not first...? Hello, here in the text is says goku was the first super saiyan. Here is the line "The Super Saiyan form was first achieved by Goku after witnessing his best friend Krillin's death at the hands of Frieza." So my statement about Goku having the super saiyan 2 transformation not first, is clearly proven here. Goku was the first to achive super saiyan 1, 3, and 4. he is not the first to achive super saiyan 2, as that was gained by Gohan first in the series. 13:03, September 12, 2011 (UTC) :That line doesn't mean he achieved it first, it talks about when he first achieved it. 16:52, September 12, 2011 (UTC) But it says the super saiyan form was first achieved ''by goku ''after witnessing his best friend krillin's death at the hands of frieza. Should I change the wording to something like "Goku achieved this transformation after witnessing the death of his best friend krillin at the hands of frieza", so users do not get confused that he was the first? 16:58, September 12, 2011 (UTC) :No, the way it is currently written is better, since it states that this was the first time he transformed. 19:20, September 12, 2011 (UTC) Yakon was not over one fourth of Goku's fpssj level. If you lookm carefully, that's only what Goku's power is perceived to be on Babidi's measuring device because it only goes up to 3000, but in reality Goku is topping off the device. If u look at it, the measuring needle is all the way at the end of the measuring device, signifying this is all the device can measure up to. So it would be more accurate to say he's over one fourth as strong as what Goku 's fpssj form was measured at with Babidi's measuring device 19:52, November 18, 2011 (UTC)Anonymous dbz contributor